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oxus
сообщение Feb 12 2007, 05:44 PM
Сообщение #16


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Hey, Bagda! Your mate won’t pull his punches, will he ? biggrin.gif

What does he do this friend of yours? I can see why he was outraged having seen all those blunders in the movie. Well, personally, I can’t see any harm in these videos, and whether ”the theory” behind them is consistent with regard to the laws natural science, in my view, is quite beyond the point. They are made (with good intention, one hopes) for those of us who need a proverbial ”kick in the butt” blushing.gif to get started. So it is the laws of human psyche, if anything, that we should talk about.

I agree that there is a certain religious aspect in these self-motivational movies, in the sense that you have to accept this stuff as a truth, therefore it is good as far as it is not taken to the extreme. If it is (taken to the extreme) then they are not self-motivational anymore but a cult, or worse, The Jehovah’s Witnesses. ohmy.gif (knock-knock!) laugh.gif

If one wants more science one could try Neuro - Linguistic Programming instead – this one is grounded in two sciences, as is clear from the title. It is one step further from the movies we discuss and proved to be working if applied correctly. As for ”the energy business”, I agree, that it is no good applying the terminology of Physics to such a phenomenon as ”thoughts” , for example. But then again the Physics scientists will be the first to admit the limits to their existing knowledge. Who knows, probably in our lifetime someone will come up with formulae to calculate the ”speed” and the ”mass” of a thought ? A wishful thinking, is it? unsure.gif Alas, none of us is going to live that long. :'(

Finally, I do not think we should take this ”thought is material” business literally. It is more of a metaphor, is it not, and encourages responsibility for one’s thoughts and deeds, does it not ? Well, one thing is sure, an energy or not, our thoughts influence our emotional and psychological well-being, and therefore, influence our performance in the physical world. So if these movies make some of us a better being, or more successful salesman or athlete, a more responsible taxpayer, a (more) loyal husband or wife, then why not? smile.gif

Сообщение отредактировал oxus - Feb 12 2007, 05:47 PM
 
Fucin
сообщение Feb 12 2007, 06:17 PM
Сообщение #17


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Our relative independence from the society depends on a social and financial status of each individual.
There are people out there, and we have to consider this once we intend to show up among them. We have to exist by laws of these people – appropriately wearing, speaking, working, maintaining common order of the place.
I guess all this restricts our independence or our freedom if you wish. We have to regulate our wills to the environment we live in. Coordination btwn our desires and society’s needs is strictly adjusted.
But at the same time we still remain ”relatively independent” within that society, and we got so many choices to make, and so many ways to go, so many dreams to make them true.

I don’t believe though, that if I want something deadly, dreaming of it, striving for it, there is none on the planet that wants the very same thing and his desire is more powerful than mine. He will get it, not me. So, we are talking about some sort of contest of our own desires on the Universe level. That seems stupid!

Сообщение отредактировал Fucin - Feb 12 2007, 06:29 PM
 
oxus
сообщение Feb 12 2007, 06:40 PM
Сообщение #18


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Fancy hearing about "observing the rules of people out there" from a famous non-conformist and вольнодумец Fucin! biggrin.gif I am sure that my irony will not be lost on our Israeli friends! laugh.gif

Thanks, Slava, I got you point. And in gereral terms I agree with your vision of "relative freedom". Some people find the image of a river helpful to describe the idea : the general direction is predetermined. You are free to move inside the flow - left, right or even up the stream, if you feel like to, but always within the shores ( or banks, whatever). And it should take something greater than your personal will to change the direction of the current.

As I wrote this I remembered the song by Высоцкий - "Охота на волков" : "Мы затравлено мчимся на выстрел и не пробуем через флажки". Well, in this case as well, it is extremely hard to beat the convention (instinct) and introduce a radical change.

Сообщение отредактировал oxus - Feb 12 2007, 06:47 PM
 
bagda
сообщение Feb 12 2007, 07:45 PM
Сообщение #19


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Цитата(oxus @ Feb 12 2007, 08:44 AM) *
Hey, Bagda! Your mate won’t pull his punches, will he ? biggrin.gif

What does he do this friend of yours? I can see why he was outraged having seen all those blunders in the movie. Well, personally, I can’t see any harm in these videos, and whether ”the theory” behind them is consistent with regard to the laws natural science, in my view, is quite beyond the point. They are made (with good intention, one hopes) for those of us who need a proverbial ”kick in the butt” blushing.gif to get started. So it is the laws of human psyche, if anything, that we should talk about.

I agree that there is a certain religious aspect in these self-motivational movies, in the sense that you have to accept this stuff as a truth, therefore it is good as far as it is not taken to the extreme. If it is (taken to the extreme) then they are not self-motivational anymore but a cult, or worse, The Jehovah’s Witnesses. ohmy.gif (knock-knock!) laugh.gif

If one wants more science one could try Neuro - Linguistic Programming instead – this one is grounded in two sciences, as is clear from the title. It is one step further from the movies we discuss and proved to be working if applied correctly. As for ”the energy business”, I agree, that it is no good applying the terminology of Physics to such a phenomenon as ”thoughts” , for example. But then again the Physics scientists will be the first to admit the limits to their existing knowledge. Who knows, probably in our lifetime someone will come up with formulae to calculate the ”speed” and the ”mass” of a thought ? A wishful thinking, is it? unsure.gif Alas, none of us is going to live that long. :'(

Finally, I do not think we should take this ”thought is material” business literally. It is more of a metaphor, is it not, and encourages responsibility for one’s thoughts and deeds, does it not ? Well, one thing is sure, an energy or not, our thoughts influence our emotional and psychological well-being, and therefore, influence our performance in the physical world. So if these movies make some of us a better being, or more successful salesman or athlete, a more responsible taxpayer, a (more) loyal husband or wife, then why not? smile.gif

Hey dude!
Dear Tom is a professional disputant but posses an amiable skill to quarrel with good humor. Nah, he is a union worker, a residual status left after his failed attempts to bring a Trotskyites revolution in South America. )))

The inspirational material in whatever form is always taken to the extent an individual will allow. In my opinion there is little difference between religious tantrums, psychological self-help sessions or any other passionate thoughts or acts. The important question is - which of those produce least harm to others and most benefit to you. People find innovative ways to look for answers and as far as I am concerned, aspiring goals is a great tool especially when acts follow ambitions. Unfortunately, humans being extraordinarily complicated creatures that we are, have great difficulties establishing objects of desires. The struggle to determine our purpose and our wants from life takes us all the way from the infancy to the death beds. I personally cannot name a single goal, the one above all, that will make me blissfully happy. Our scattered thoughts (or at least mine) that make it difficult achieving goal. Mind you however, I never seem to have problems aspiring to bigger and better. Productive or not, this is the battle most of us are familiar with.


Цитата(Fucin @ Feb 12 2007, 09:16 AM) *
I don’t believe though, that if I want something deadly, dreaming of it, striving for it, there is none on the planet that wants the very same thing and his desire is more powerful than mine. He will get it, not me. So, we are talking about some sort of contest of our own desires on the Universe level. That seems stupid!

But then yet contests can be very productive. We’re competing with others to prove something to ourselves and benchmark ourselves against the best. However I would also have to say that competition can be very destructive. It is all a fine medley of various ranges of emotions that carry us ahead…
 
oxus
сообщение Feb 12 2007, 08:08 PM
Сообщение #20


08.02.06 - 01.04.07


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Цитата(bagda @ Feb 12 2007, 07:44 PM) *
Hey dude!
Dear Tom failed attempts to bring a Trotskyites revolution in South America. )))

So, he's a Trot then? In that case we should forgive a harsh tone of his letter.
biggrin.gif

The struggle to determine our purpose and our wants from life takes us all the way from the infancy to the death beds.

How true! Sometimes one wonders - is it worth all this fuss ? huh.gif

I personally cannot name a single goal, the one above all, that will make me blissfully happy.

A rudderless ship in a sea of controversy ? My dear girl, it sounds as if you were in a desperate need of a guru! Shall I fly to Austin or will you come over to Boston ?


cool.gif

Сообщение отредактировал oxus - Feb 12 2007, 09:09 PM
 
bagda
сообщение Feb 12 2007, 08:50 PM
Сообщение #21


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Цитата(oxus @ Feb 12 2007, 11:08 AM) *
A rudderless ship in a sea of contreversy ? My dear girl, it sounds as if you were in a desperate need of a guru! Shall I fly to Austin or will you come over to Boston ?

I have sneaky suspicions of the exact nature of your “guru” abilities you’re implying. dry.gif
Нет тебе веры!!! ))) (и не гладь довольно пузо)
 
oxus
сообщение Feb 12 2007, 09:09 PM
Сообщение #22


08.02.06 - 01.04.07


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laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

luv ya. wink.gif
 
Nymphetamine
сообщение Feb 13 2007, 02:58 AM
Сообщение #23


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Цитата(oxus @ Feb 11 2007, 09:58 PM) *
Hi. This conversation is becoming more and more engaging. Those are great questions that you raised, Diana. Who are we ? Masters of our destiny or miserable ”victims of circumstances”? And how relative, Fucin, is this ”relative independence” that you are talking about ? Can one dramatically change his or her life or are we jуst fooling ourselves and there is no such thing as freedom of choice ? What is this freedom anyway, and how does it square with ”karma”, for example?

I take your point, Diana, about leaders espousing different ideologies, rather than being good or bad. Moreover, it is also true that calling ideologies good or bad is making a value judgment. Your evaluation will depend on where you stand on the issue. In other words there is no such thing as the absolute truth. Or is there ?

I also somewhat share you pessimistic assessment of human nature, although I would probably not go as far as maintaining that the human beings do not learn from their mistakes. Diana, why do you think we’re repeating "the same mistake for the third time ?" What is this mistake, in your view ?

Talking about ”laws of attraction” and ”the response of the Universe” I found Paulo Coelho’s Alchemist quite entertaining. ”When the person is about to live out his legend all the forces the Universe conspire to make it happen”. Rather comforting thought if you believe it, don’t you think ?


Well, first of all I read Coelho's Alchemist a year ago and loved it. I read his other books too, I think he's a genius.
What I said about history repeating itself is that we're in a World War III now, without it being named yet. The Second World War was the result of people not being able to learn from the first, and now what? Innocent people are dying because of political disputes.
 
oxus
сообщение Feb 13 2007, 03:44 AM
Сообщение #24


08.02.06 - 01.04.07


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Цитата(Nymphetamine @ Feb 13 2007, 02:58 AM) *
Well, first of all I read Coelho's Alchemist a year ago and loved it. I read his other books too, I think he's a genius.

Yes, it's a great book. But the only one I read, I am afraid. What about other books? Which one would you recommend ?

What I said about history repeating itself is that we're in a World War III now, without it being named yet. The Second World War was the result of people not being able to learn from the first, and now what? Innocent people are dying because of political disputes.


I can see now and share your disappointment. I think part of the problem is that there are quite a number of people, some of them very powerful decision-makers, who think that war is a natural state of affairs. And peace is nothing but a very brief period between wars. For this people, a human being is jуst another animal in the jungle, driven by primordial instincts - survival and competition. Yet, there are others who believe that Good God created man ( and a woman wink.gif ) in His own Image, and wars are results of human ignorance.

What do you think ? And how can we stop wars ?

Сообщение отредактировал oxus - Feb 13 2007, 03:47 AM
 
Nymphetamine
сообщение Feb 13 2007, 04:28 AM
Сообщение #25


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Цитата(oxus @ Feb 12 2007, 07:44 PM) *
I can see now and share your disappointment. I think part of the problem is that there are quite a number of people, some of them very powerful decision-makers, who think that war is a natural state of affairs. And peace is nothing but a very brief period between wars. For this people, a human being is jуst another animal in the jungle, driven by primordial instincts - survival and competition. Yet, there are others who believe that Good God created man ( and a woman wink.gif ) in His own Image, and wars are results of human ignorance.

What do you think ? And how can we stop wars ?


Wars are impossible to avoid, it's human nature, it comes way back from the tribal times and it's engraved in our genes. The best thing we can do is to be pro-peace and not anti-war smile.gif

Speaking of Coelho, I actually wrote an essay for my Russian class last year, here it is :

Сегодня я хочу вам поведать о гениальном писателе и филослофе- Пауло Коэльо. Ему только недавно исполнилось пятьдесят лет, он родился в Бразилии, Рио - Дэ - Жанейро, в 1947 г. Его слава внезапно взорвала мир, когда его первый бестселлер «Алхимик» вышел в свет. Он стал одним из самых читаемых современных писателей. Его феномен « Идти по дороге света без предрассудков и предубеждений» . Его работы уже ставят на одном уровне с классикой как «Маленький Принц» и «Чайка по имени Джонатан Ливингстон». Критики говорят что секрет его успеха в глубокой мудрости писателся, в своих книгах он даёт нам много почвы для размышления. Он пытается научить нас урокам жизни и в то же время кажется, что он много чего недоговаривает. Он оставляет нам возможность продумать всё самим и сделать свои выводы.
Жизненный путь человека. У каждого он свой. Одни идут слепо, прожигая жизнь день за днём. Другие - задаваясь вопросами о смысле жизни и своём предназначении в этом мире, выбирают путь духовного развития. Это- путь сильного человека, готового к неожиданным поворотам судьбы, страданиям и лишениям. Он принимает всё это с благодарностью, как уроки, посланные ему свыше, как ступеньки на пути своего духовного развития.
В произведении «Алхимик» автор описывает Путь главного героя, используя аллегории.
Обычный пастух, с установившимся и привычным укладом жизни, отправился к египетским пирамидам в поисках сокровищ. На этом пути его ожидают захватывающие приключения. Судьба посылает ему как интересные, так и опасные встречи, каждая из которых становится важным этапом на его пути. Путешествие помогает герою познакомится с частичками самого себя, научиться доверять людям, разгадывать тайные знаки, посылаемые Вселенной, слушать окружающую природу и самое главное - внимать собственному сердцу. Он проходит длинный путь, находит сокровища и в итоге –обретает себя.
Произведение написанно в форме философской сказки. Её смыслом является поиск своего собственного пути, который есть у каждого человека: «...кем бы ты не был, чего бы ты не хотел, но если чего-нибудь сильно хочешь, то непременно получишь, ибо желание родилось в душе Вселенной. Это твоё предназначение на Земле».
У каждого есть своя мечта или цель. Думая о ней, мы идём к ней своим собственным путём, ведь именно для этого и явились на этот свет. Для человека ищущего, активного, талантливого добиться воплощения своей судьбы становится подленным смыслом жизни. Для человека сильного духом, неудачи и поражения на его пути становятся уроками. Он понимает их и принимает с благодарностью. И тогда человек становится ещё сильней, светлей, добрей и мудрей. Теперь он готов к главной награде, уготовленной ему судьбой - встрече с Любовью.
Мне очень понравилось, что пастух говорит о любви: «Любовь это когда любишь и способен стать кем угодно», «Любовь – это сила, которая преображает и улучшает душу Мира».
Продолжением темы духовного пути, любви и своего предназначения на Земле является другое произведение Пауло Коэльо « На Берегу Рио Пьедра я Села и Зплакала». Автор выбирает тему религии, человека, служащего Богу и несущего любовь людям. Интересно и само отношение и уважение писателя, приверженца католицизма, к различным религиям: «Мне кажется, что я понял, что все религии ведут к одной высшей цели. Мне кажется, что идеал человечества- идти по дороге света без предрассудков и предубеждений. Религии лишь помогают обрести этот путь, который неизбежно приводит к необходимости быть с людьми и оставатся терпимым и милосердным». Ключевым словом является фраза: «... выбор своего духовного пути - это твоя ответственность перед всеми остальными людьми».
Повествование книги идёт о молодом человеке, избравшим путь служения Богу, обладающим особым даром и молодой женщине, с которой его связывают детство и юность. В определённый момент их судьбы разошлись и каждый из них пошёл своим собственным путём. Но на протяжении долгих одиннадцати лет разлуки, каждый из них хранил теплые воспоминания тех нежных лет, когда они были веселы, беспечны и счастливы. Когда делились своими секретами и мечтами.
Жизнь изменила героев. Каждый их них в своём пути в одиночку многому научился. И вот настал момент, когда они готовы и желают вновь приобрести то счастье, которое познали, будучи детьми и обладая чистыми и светлыми душами. Кто знает, быть может они встретились когда-то, чтобы знать друг о друге?
Но не так просто двум, ставшими зрелыми людям, начать совместный путь. Ведь как любое путешествие, он может предвещать неожиданные повторы и препятствия. Именно в такие моменты, когда люди идут рука об руку, ободряя и поддерживая друг друга, они становятся ближе духовно и осознают всю бесценность полученного дара Небес – Любви. Ведь это великое чувство способно вдохновить человекана самое лучшее. Главный герой говорит своей возлюбленной : « Твоя любовь спасла меня и возвратила к моим мечтам»... «Господь всегда давал мне вторую попытку. Он даёт мне тебя и ты поможешь мне вновь обрести мой путь».
Каждый человек задаёт вопрос своему сердцу и печально, если оно скажет ему: « Что сделал ты с теми чудесами, которыми Бог так щедро усеял твои дни, досуги твои и труды? Как употребил ты таланты, которые вверил тебе твой Наставник? Зарыл поглубже, потомучто боялся потерять? Что же, отныне достоянием твоим будет лишь уверенность в том, что жизнь свою ты промотал и растратил, расточил и рассеял».
У каждого человека есть мысленные камни Умим и Турим. Он и только он волен выбрать свой путь и распоряжаться своей судьбой.

Сообщение отредактировал Nymphetamine - Feb 13 2007, 07:06 AM
 
oxus
сообщение Feb 13 2007, 05:11 AM
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I see. I also think that all we can do is to restrict a bellicose human nature by various mechanisms, international law being one of them.
Thanks for posting your essay. It's very well written. I bet you got A for it. I will look for Coelho's other book that you mention.
I enjoyed reading Alchemist a lot. If you remember the boy receives lots of various omens. Do you get any?

Сообщение отредактировал oxus - Feb 13 2007, 05:13 AM
 
Fucin
сообщение Feb 13 2007, 06:34 AM
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Цитата(bagda @ Feb 12 2007, 11:44 AM) *
But then yet contests can be very productive. We’re competing with others to prove something to ourselves and benchmark ourselves against the best. However I would also have to say that competition can be very destructive. It is all a fine medley of various ranges of emotions that carry us ahead…

I totally agree with that.

But this film clearly states that the Universe and we are tied into the one physical system, and physical laws regulate our relations.

So our minds are streaming out to some kind of matrix, which is the Universe as vectors with certain strength, and angle. We are sincerely anticipating getting a response, which is supposed to be a kind of direct reflection from that matrix.

But there are so many other vectors flowing at the same time and divert each other, so many influences are going on, and it seems as jуst one big mess.

So if we apply physical laws to that mess, the only thing to be of proper solution would be a sum of all incoming vectors at the same time, and response to this summed vector is not necessarily supposed to come back to us, as a direct reflection of our mind.

Most certain what gonna happen in that case is that response will come back to an unexpected direction, to someone, who doesn’t deserve at all. biggrin.gif

Сообщение отредактировал Fucin - Feb 13 2007, 06:52 AM
 
Red Sniper
сообщение Feb 14 2007, 12:15 AM
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Outstanding discussion! I absolutely enjoyed reading through..
Long time haven't see so synergetic and intelligent discussion..


Welcome to Diana.
You have a beautiful mind and a very clear logic..

One little though about wars and human nature:
“If people wanted to stop wars, they could have done it a while ago..”
(jуst philosophical though)

Сообщение отредактировал Red Sniper - Feb 14 2007, 12:30 AM
 
mechtatel
сообщение Feb 14 2007, 01:32 AM
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Wow!!! It seems to me you guys finally got your groove.
I didn’t see these videos, but got the idea.
No, don’t worry. I am not going to attack all of you at the same time.
I’ll crash you one by one (I am jуst kidding). Live longer and well, I need you and your presence.
Otherwise I can’t feel myself as a leader, reining supreme above you all.
Good or bad, I am the ONE!!! biggrin.gif fromuz_kolobok.gif

Fucin, you are good. You are not that good, but GOOD. wink.gif
“Our relative independence from the society depends on a social and financial status of each individual.”
Fucin, did you come to those conclusions on your own, fighting the downstream? The theory, recited by you is one of the proven logical pathway prevalent with majority of philosophers and thinkers.
I jуst wish to add little correction.
Maybe not from society but from other individuals within the society, because your Social and Financial status could be achieved only through interaction with the rest of society. Even if you move away from one, you get closer to another one.

“They are made (with good intention, one hopes) for those of us who need a proverbial ”kick in the butt” to get started. So it is the laws of human psyche, if anything, that we should talk about.”
Oxus, you are not that far behind. wink.gif
I like your approach: “Ends justify the means”.
Hey guys, go ahead, massage your minds. I’ll be watching. Actually I enjoy reading your verses. I would love to join you, but it is not my cup of tea.
But I'll support you all the way to Saint Pete’s doors .
 
bagda
сообщение Feb 14 2007, 02:03 AM
Сообщение #30


Постоянный участник


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Цитата(Fucin @ Feb 12 2007, 09:34 PM) *
I totally agree with that.

But this film clearly states that the Universe and we are tied into the one physical system, and physical laws regulate our relations.

So our minds are streaming out to some kind of matrix, which is the Universe as vectors with certain strength, and angle. We are sincerely anticipating getting a response, which is supposed to be a kind of direct reflection from that matrix.

But there are so many other vectors flowing at the same time and divert each other, so many influences are going on, and it seems as jуst one big mess.

So if we apply physical laws to that mess, the only thing to be of proper solution would be a sum of all incoming vectors at the same time, and response to this summed vector is not necessarily supposed to come back to us, as a direct reflection of our mind.

Fucin, goodness! What an imagination! biggrin.gif Either that, or as Canadian Sergey claims, a high-quality weed. )) It does remind me of the idea where universe is compared to a computer with channels and thoughts as communication devices where one disturbance, creates turbulence at an entirely different port. With common folks this concept is also called karma, something I genuinely believe in.

Цитата(Fucin @ Feb 12 2007, 09:34 PM) *
Most certain what gonna happen in that case is that response will come back to an unexpected direction, to someone, who doesn’t deserve at all. biggrin.gif

Here you question whether our input is proportional to the outcome… whether destiny creates or is created. Certainly being in the right place at the right time matters - the question is how much?
 

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